Jam Session (00:00)
[Music]

Ji Kim (00:10)
Welcome to the Jam Session podcast, where by tuning in, we hope you tune into your purpose. I’m your co-host, Ji Kim. I am a former HR executive who is now helping women in their second.

Mel Hightower (00:24)
I’m your co-host Mel Hightower, recovering banker, lawyer, and currently in search of hidden stories that affect us all and have the power to change the world. Speaking of stories, today’s episode is one that hits home for us. We are talking about the women who are single or who do not have children, whether by choice, chance, or circumstance. Today, we are going to get into it, the data, the freedom, the stigma, the complexity, and of course, our

own stories.

Ji Kim (00:56)
And we decided on this topic because Mel and I were reading articles, as we often do, and some of the data were profound. Once that in particular jumped out at me, it was a study backed by Morgan Stanley that indicated for women aged 40 to 44, over 55 % of single women have never married. And we thought…

Gosh, this impacts so many women in the US and it’s not just Mel and I.

Mel Hightower (01:31)
Absolutely, it’s like we’re a collective now, a community, even though there are personal journeys underneath the broader statistic. And so, Ji, with that framing, what are your thoughts on marriage?

Ji Kim (01:48)
Today being mid 40 versus what I thought about it growing up. What I will say across the board that’s remained consistent is I never had a strong pulling to get married. I never imagined wedding day, wedding dress,

vows growing up, nor do I necessarily think about it now. Because at a young age, what you see in your household impacts what you want in the future. My parents had a chaotic, abusive relationship, and that really turned me off to marriage. Then now, being in my mid-40s, I want a partner, but don’t necessarily have

a huge desire to be married and if I do get married now, it’ll be non-conventional. I love my space. I love going about this world doing my own thing. So I definitely would advocate for him and I having our own place and living on our own a few days a week and then coming together a few days a week. Look, I want a marriage.

that works for me and where I’m at today.

Mel Hightower (03:14)
It sounds like you’re really interested in preserving your individuality and your sense of space, of personal space.

Ji Kim (03:21)
I like my life. So if I’m going to have a marriage, there has to be a lot of value add to do that for me.

Mel Hightower (03:30)
What struck me is the examples that you see growing up playing a role in forming your own views. And I was, and currently am, pretty ambivalent about marriage. It’s because of the examples that I had growing up. I had a big family. Because of that huge family, there were many different examples. My grandparents were married for over 70 years. Wonderful marriage. My parents divorced when I was young, but were united.

in a healthy co-parenting relationship. And then I had an uncle who was a lifetime bachelor. So I had really up close and personal experience that your life could take different paths and not viewing one as particularly better or worse than another. I knew growing up that there were options.

Ji Kim (04:22)
That’s so healthy because the choice that you’re making now really has to do with understanding the options, not from trauma. Whereas for me, a lot of my views on marriage was tainted because of what I experienced in my household at a young age. So what does your mom say to you now about you being single? Is there any pressure?

Mel Hightower (04:48)
There was definitely a moment where the script flipped. So my family, all while I was a kid growing up, they were very much about preaching independence. And when I got to college, all of the questions were like, who did you meet? Is there anyone nice there? Are you dating anybody? It was all focused to finding your partner at school. It struck me. You’ve never had this emphasis before.

Ji Kim (05:15)
What is that saying? Your daughter goes to college to get their Mrs. degree?

Mel Hightower (05:21)
Yes, which was so odd. My mom, to her credit, never really pushed that. It was my extended family making sure that I still saw marriage as a possibility. Then my brother got married. So he took the pressure off of me at this age in my 40s. I’ve talked to my mom more recently about it and she was like, if you do, you do. If you don’t, you don’t.

Ji Kim (05:50)
Very different experience than mine. My mom now has more of that attitude, but that’s only because for the last 15 years, I’ve been introduced to her friends as this is a daughter who has never been married. This is the daughter who doesn’t have kids. And it really triggered me because it was an insecurity of mine as if

I wasn’t whole, that I wasn’t somehow worthy. And someone came over last week and I came out to greet them. And the first thing was, are you married yet? So culturally, there’s a lot of pressure, but now it’s more of, okay, this is your story, this is your value system. And I don’t have to take that on. I don’t need that.

societal pressure, that cultural pressure to have any impact on me because essentially this is my life and I’m okay with it.

Mel Hightower (06:54)
What about children? It sounds like we were both ambivalent about the idea of marriage, but did you feel the same about having kids?

Ji Kim (07:04)
I mean, I was even more ambivalent about children.

Mel Hightower (07:11)
Is that also because of what you saw growing up? Tell me more about why.

Ji Kim (07:15)
Some women

are just meant to have kids. I mean, look at my sister who, very young age, would talk about kids. That was something that was so important to her. I never had that feeling or calling. When I hit my 30s and I was in this relationship, I thought, you’re supposed to have kids, we’re headed towards marriage. But,

this whole biological clock that’s ticking, I was like, did this tick miss me because I am not feeling it, nor do I have a yearning for children? And maybe that had to do with the fact that I was so heavily involved with my sister’s kids and taking care of them. But I also thought that that would

show me that I could be a good parent and I would want kids even more, but nothing impacted my desire for kids. As I aged, I just knew I made the right decision.

Mel Hightower (08:27)
But you love being an aunt.

Ji Kim (08:28)
I love being an aunt. I love those kids. are a part of my life and I think of them often and I’m heavily involved in their lives. It just ends there.

Mel Hightower (08:45)
get to give them back. I also think there’s something about kids, there is this connection, this bond, this responsibility that you’ll have your entire life and you need to be prepared for that.

Ji Kim (08:58)
Honestly, Mel, we had the episode on fixer roles. I often ask myself, because I started doing heavy work on myself at 40 years old, did I also not want kids because I was in the fixer mode with my family most of my life? I didn’t want to add that huge additional responsibility.

Mel Hightower (09:22)
And what was the answer that you found?

Ji Kim (09:25)
I

feel as if it was a contribution to my decision, but I truly believe I just didn’t want kids. And my theory on kids is if you’re gonna have them, you have to really want them to be a good parent.

Mel Hightower (09:45)
100%. I knew with certainty I did not want kids. That was from an early age. People would play house and it just didn’t register for me. I loved dolls. I told you this, Ji. I would tie my Barbies to the ceiling fan and turn them on just to see what would happen to them. And it’s so interesting because I’m very nurturing, but I wouldn’t necessarily call myself maternal.

I come from a big family and I’m among the older girls. From an early age, I was the family babysitter. So that really reinforced for me that caring for children was not necessarily something I wanted for myself. And like you, I had aunt duties pretty early on. I love them dearly. But the best thing is I can drop in, be the fun aunt.

And then we’re good. I knew that I didn’t want children, but I also was aware enough to know that that could change. I always considered adoption an alternative for me. So I wasn’t as pressed about the timeline as those who prefer to have children with whom they share DNA. And there was also my deep commitment to my career. It’s a sad fact, but it’s true.

That would have made it difficult to have started a family.

Ji Kim (11:18)
The added layer for me was also the fact that I was with the wrong person for 12 years.

Mel Hightower (11:23)
Talk more about, it sounds like it was circumstance and choice for you, your decision not to have children.

Ji Kim (11:33)
I always look at it as, was it an active decision or how life unfolded? For me, it’s a combination of both. Active decision in the sense that I didn’t want to have kids with the wrong person. I knew at an early age that I didn’t want kids.

The how life unfolded was the fact that I was with a person that was not the right fit for me without realizing it for 12 years. At 40 when that relationship ended, it’s harder to get pregnant. So that decision was also made for me and I didn’t freeze my eggs because honestly, one, I didn’t have a lot of education around that, but two,

I knew I did not want kids.

Mel Hightower (12:27)
Now that you’ve done the work and worked through your trauma and are on this journey towards healing, how has that changed what you may or may not be looking for in marriage or in a partner?

Ji Kim (12:42)
What’s so important is the narratives we had to let go of, of how our life was going to turn out or the narratives that society puts on us. for me, the narrative I had to let go of was this appearance of a perfect life, this appearance of like being chosen by a man. Because at the end of the day, it’s…

There’s this thing that happens where women don’t feel worthy unless they’re married because it means they’re chosen. I still have value even though I’m not chosen. He didn’t choose me because at the end of the day we just weren’t the right fit and this shit would have ended in divorce anyways.

Mel Hightower (13:32)
You know, I too had to let go of narratives and being so worried about what other people would think or say.

So I was engaged in my 20s to a wonderful guy. We will call him William. We’ve known each other since high school and reconnected after college. And it was a great relationship in that we were comfortable with one another and my family knew him and knew his family and vice versa. But then there came a decision point, an inflection point.

I needed to prioritize the relationship or my career.

And sometimes I think we make the choices that bring about the outcomes that we want, whether we admit it to ourselves or not. When I went back to school, there was a choice I could make to go attend a school that was based where he was. He was military and didn’t have much choice about where he was getting sent. Or I could choose a different school, which

would mean invariably that we would go our separate ways. I ended up choosing a school that was not near where he was based. He said to me, you’ve made your decision and now I need to make mine. It was a bittersweet end, but one that needed to happen. And I couldn’t even be mad because I had made my choice. It was more important to me at that point in my life to

choose career, to choose the school that I wanted, rather than to choose the relationship. I needed to let go of this narrative of so-called having it all and really redefining what all actually meant for me.

Ji Kim (15:30)
Letting go means mourning. It means the death of something and that is always hard even though it can be good for you. But back to your question Mel about like who am I attracted to now which I want you to answer as well but I have no idea and the reason I say that as a person who

generally is very clear on what she likes and dislikes and what she wants to bring out in and out of her life. I’m a very different person, I’m that relationship at 40 than I am today. I’ve done so much work on myself. I’ve evolved. I’ve healed a lot of my trauma. It’s still a work in progress. Who I am today would never be in that relationship. The person I am today has no idea what she’s attracted to. She’s just open.

And she no longer has a checklist.

Mel Hightower (16:26)
Right. my goodness. I remember those days when you had a checklist of all the things.

Ji Kim (16:31)
So shallow and meaningless that is not sustainable long term. The one thing I’m sure about is I want to find someone who has the same value system as myself. That foundation is really important. That means longevity in a relationship.

Mel Hightower (16:54)
In terms of what I look for in a relationship, so I did a lot of work on myself throughout the years. Most recently, my therapist asked the question, what do you bring to a relationship? I think it’s a great way to start because you start from a position of what are you contributing? And you start from a position of valuing what you add to the partnership of marriage. And it was a unique spot because

often we are constantly looking for things in relationships as opposed to thinking and centering on and anchoring on what is the self-worth and self-value that we enter into a relationship with. I’m looking for an alignment in belief systems, lifestyle choices, long-term aspirations. I come from a deep Christian background, we would say equally yoked.

Consistency is another thing that I look for in relationships. Act of showing up is what fosters security for me. And then the third is probably goes without saying, but emotional connection.

Ji Kim (18:07)
I love what you say about what your therapist asked you about what you bring to the table because when you’re healing, that’s how you look at it in a partnership. Whereas when you haven’t started the work or doing the work, you’re looking for someone who is going to feel those voids in you.

Mel Hightower (18:30)
First you’re looking for relationships from a scarcity mindset when you’re not healed versus when you are you’re looking for relationships from an abundance mindset. You are already a complete, authentic, amazing individual. You’re looking for a partner. You can help each other reach the next level.

Ji Kim (18:48)
or at least the partner who’s going to support you reach the next level. My main thing is he’s got to have his own thing going on.

Mel Hightower (18:53)
When you say own thing going on, are you talking about the career side? Are you talking about pursuits and interests? All of it.

Ji Kim (18:58)
Before it was only career. Now it’s more of you have to have your own thing in the sense of you are passionate about something outside of the relationship. can be saving dogs. It can be feeding the homeless. I love seeing that energy in a man.

Mel Hightower (19:19)
It’s a good segue for us to talk about what we’ve gained from being single.

Ji Kim (19:26)
What have you gained from being childless and single?

Mel Hightower (19:32)
The biggest thing that comes to mind is this self-discovery that I’ve had the time and ability to do. Being able to take time to get to know me, to learn what I want. The other is freedom. And not to say that being partnered or married isn’t freedom, but there is this flexibility of living life on your own terms without answering to anybody.

That is a beautiful thing. And when I think about the fact that I can get on a plane and go wherever I want and I don’t have to check in with anyone, I can just roll. And I enjoy my single life when I travel or even go about my regular day to day in the Bay. That contentment, I discovered I really like being alone.

Ji Kim (20:22)
There’s something that happens when you are single and childless. You’re able to pour back into yourself and hyper focus on what brings you peace. In my situation, the ability to focus on friendships, the ability to test out my career and truly pursue my passions because when you are married and you have children, you have obligations outside of yourself. You don’t

get to one day say, ah, HR is not for me. You know, I love coaching, right? You have to be methodical and think about everybody else it impacts. But being singled allowed me to tap into my creativity and focus on what I want to do long term. You get to reinvent yourself and have your own identity without…

having to consider other individuals you get to move about in this world as you please and pivot as you please. It’s as simple as I get to order whatever I want on DoorDash and I don’t have to ask somebody what they’re in the mood for.

Mel Hightower (21:34)
I love that. It’s as simple as that.

Ji Kim (21:38)
Nothing brings me more joy of getting up and doing my own thing with my dogs without checking in with anybody. So those are everything that I’ve gained.

Mel Hightower (21:52)
We’d be remiss if we didn’t talk about the hard parts, too.

Ji Kim (21:56)
Yes, because with every positive, there’s always going to be some hardship. Mel, you know I have this fear. I have this fear of dying alone and nobody knowing for weeks. It makes me sad thinking about that.

Mel Hightower (22:06)
Yes.

Ji Kim (22:20)
Because it means I was isolated, not connected to the world, and I didn’t have a rich life as I aged. And that’s a huge fear of mine, of not having a partner, not having kids, to have that connection. Obviously we have family, and I have friends as well, but I do have this fear of aging, being alone, dying alone, and being isolated.

Mel Hightower (22:51)
So I think loneliness is definitely something to deal with. When you are married, you are building shared memories where you can look back together and you can remember the happy moments, the sad moments, the big moments, the small moments. You’ve been on this journey with someone who is living the experience with you. So there’s an intimacy that comes from that, that when you are…

solo, you don’t have, you don’t have the act of sharing, that act of community that you get from being with someone. I hear you on the aging concern. My fear is not so much dying alone. My fear is more about who’s going to care for me as I age. That is something I’ve been thinking through more and more in my 40s because it’s…

easy living this life as long as you have good health. But what about when you don’t? And in my culture, you know, it’s always kids taking care of their parents, but I don’t have that. So who is going to take care of me? So I have to think about what’s going to happen to me. What is going to be the long-term care plan for myself? So that’s one. The second is, you know, financial planning. I’m my own backstop in many ways.

I also think about community, but in a different way. I’m envisioning like, how do I ensure that I stay connected even as I age? That’s one of the fears. I’ve always thought about, you know, maybe I’ll do this sort of new age golden girls thing where I will build.

Ji Kim (24:33)
We talked about that. Buying land and having tiny homes, a community of women who are single and maybe childless.

Mel Hightower (24:41)
Yes,

and I was explaining it to a friend and he was like, no, that’s just a senior housing community. Get in one.

Ji Kim (24:49)
But what if financially you’re not capable of getting into a good senior housing? But at the core of my fear is not being financially well off in my old age to have someone care for me.

Mel Hightower (25:04)
Health becomes the biggest expense. It’s a big expense now. You barely went to the doctor when I was in my 20s. Now I feel like I see the doctor on a regular basis.

Ji Kim (25:14)
I will give a perfect example of what Mel is talking about where she mentions her fear of not having someone care for her when she ages. Gosh, maybe a month or so ago her back went out. She was texting me, who’s gonna help me out of bed? Who is going to feed me? Legit concerns, cause she was in pain.

These are the things that happen in your mid 40s that does not happen in your 20s and 30s, which remind us that not being married and being childless means we have to think about care.

Mel Hightower (25:59)
they brought that home for me full force too. I have a huge family, but I live by myself in San Francisco. I have an uncle who lives about an hour and a half away from me, but for all intents and purposes, it’s just me. And during COVID, I saw no one. That was really difficult.

And yes, Ji was calling me every day. I had family members calling me all the time, but it’s different. And it really, took its toll on me because all of the things that I do, I’m usually out and about, that wasn’t happening. So it definitely brought home for me that this is what life can look like.

Ji Kim (26:46)
It’s a scary thought and Mel and I are not here to say one way or the other what’s better, what’s not. Let’s be clear about that.

Mel Hightower (26:57)
No, if I had any advice for folks that are unsure, you need to keep discovering what it is that you actually want. Really test for yourself whether or not being single is something that you enjoy now, but your preferences and thoughts and beliefs may change. Second, think about what it is that you like about being single and what it is that you might hope

to gain from a relationship. That’s where I would start. Ji, what advice do you have?

Ji Kim (27:34)
Gosh, for the individuals undecided, my main advice is very simple, which is if you desire to be in a relationship, ask yourself if this is working and the why behind it. Because oftentimes, and this is from my own experience, we gravitate towards relationships because of

pressures because we’re afraid or because we just don’t want to start over. And you deserve to make decisions that are solely what’s best for you without the noise, without the fear. Because honestly, life is so short.

Mel Hightower (28:26)
Even as we make plans, you have to live in the here and now and take each moment at a time.

Ji Kim (28:34)
So before we wrap up, I want to hear from Mel. What is it that you wish you knew 10 years ago?

Mel Hightower (28:44)
If I could go back and give advice to my younger self, I would tell her that 10 years from now, you will not care what other folks think. Whether it is a combination of life experience, being perimenopausal-

Ji Kim (29:05)
We have to a whole episode on that.

Mel Hightower (29:07)
Yes, whether it is any of that or something else. As you get older, it becomes less important what society thinks, what your family thinks, and to be much more anchored on whether you are happy with the choices that you make. Do what works best for you and be unapologetic about it. What about you, Ji?

Ji Kim (29:30)
Me, if I am talking to my younger self, one, your skincare regimen will pay off.

Mel Hightower (29:39)
Okay.

Ji Kim (29:41)
Really important, I want to tell myself that, to leave the relationship. Don’t be afraid to start over. What you’re feeling deep down that he’s not the right fit for you is true and in doing so you are going to build an amazing life with lots of love and friendship and you’re truly going to get to know yourself.

but staying here, you’ll negate all that.

Mel Hightower (30:15)
Staying still is really a choice.

Ji Kim (30:17)
Not making a choice is a choice.

Mel Hightower (30:20)
True,

and we hope that by listening to this conversation, you will see that there’s always a choice to be made. The choice starts with listening to yourself and trusting yourself to make the best decision for you.

Ji Kim (30:35)
And just remember whatever choice you make, with the exception of having a baby, it isn’t permanent. So don’t put that huge pressure that the decision you make today needs to be a decision tomorrow or a year from now.

Mel Hightower (30:49)
And with that, it’s a good spot for us to wrap up. We’d love to hear your thoughts on living the single life, living the married life. We’d like to hold space for those choices and things in between because each choice is valid. So if you wanna tell us about your own journeys, please feel free to drop us an email at info at jamsession-podcast.com. And we hope.

that by tuning into us, you tune in to your purpose. Thank you. ⁓